Topic [99] Remote Viewing as a Martial Art? TKR Remote Viewing Forum August 2003

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Damien, somewhere around August 6, 2003

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    [center][color=Red]Why do people refer to Remote Viewing as a Martial Art?[/color][/center]

    The primary definition of martial as per the Webster's New Universal Unabridged dictionary is: inclined or disposed to war; warlike.  All ensuing definitions contain the word war.  It seems that the general attitude of the military and those progenitors of various modalities of RV in the civilian sector have had a great influence on this association.  To call Remote Viewing a 'martial art' is analogous to calling all written word a vehicle for malice.  Written word has caused many a person to have their feelings hurt, or to be sued, or even to be put to death for heresy.  However, written word has also spread life giving knowledge to people everywhere.  Not to mention the poem's and thoughtful lines that have allowed people to share their intimate feelings of love.
    I will bet anyone here, all that I have, that the majority of RV is not done with the intent to harm others.  Why then does this association continue?
    What do you want the future of Remote Viewing to be?  What kind of people do you think will be attracted to Remote Viewing if we continue with  the tag of 'Martial Art'?  How do you think these people will use this method of knowledge acquisition?
    These are important questions.  These are the reasons that Secret Societies teach clandestinely.  The uses of the type of knowledge that can be acquired from Remote Viewing could have grave consequences far beyond that of any current technology possesed by any government, or, it could be used to elevate humanity to a degree of evolution in congruence with love.  In another post I have described how light has been proven scientifically to resonate with our DNA.  If you make the jump that pure light is love then you realize that we are made to love.  What kind of association do you want to have with Remote Viewing?  
    I feel that we as humanity have been in fear too long, which has lead to war.  Our countries are scared, they attack others countries becuase they are afraid they will be attacked, the cycle never ends.
    I for one refuse to perpetuate this cycle.  I use Remote Viewing to gain knowledge of the world around me.  I do not care if my methods cannot be proven or verified by science.  I care for humanity and the ways in which I can use RV to help my brothers and sisters in this world of struggle.  I feel it is the duty of those people who can practice this 'gift' to help others in such a way that we can take a step closer to that resonance which we were created to have.  Maybe I am being too idealistic here, maybe even childish, then again, maybe we all need to look at the world through the loving, forgiving eyes of our children.

                                             Lovingly,
                                                           -)amien

Mystic_Rhythms, somewhere around August 6, 2003

I think, that RV is compared to a Martial Art more in its practice as opposed to its purpose.

In that RV takes a strict dedication, frequent practice, and diliberate intent to achieve skill.  It also can be an art form as well, in a users skill and style, much like a martial art.

I don't take it the same way you do, then again, I have several friends who are black belts and I do enjoy watching them disply thier talent, in forms and sparring.  I kind of think of RV as more of a martial "form"

My 2 cents.  I certainly agree with you on the evolution part, you have a few billion people to go on that, however...  :)

MR

VSW, somewhere around August 6, 2003

Hey D!!

Yeah, I'd have to agree with Mystic, in that it has become a sort of identification with the dicipline, focus & repetitious training associated with martial arts as most know them.

In fact, to look at the root of what we Americans identify as martial arts may shed a new light. Most authentic traditions are referred to as 'bujutsu', 'bugei', etc... or a way such as 'Bushido'...or the individual as 'bushi'. The root being 'bu'. The kanji for 'bu' has 3 distinct aspects & meaninings: 'stop', 'two' & 'spears'. So in reality the original meaning behind these terms & truly the timeless principles being taught, is 'to stop conflict, represented by to opposing spears'. 'To come between to opposing spears'.

In this light, martial traditions in reality have more to do with becoming fully awakened human beings & less to do with propagating violence or war.


VSW

energycritter, somewhere around August 7, 2003

I agree....

If you read the Eastern texts about it....you will find the love and compasion for humanity woven into every fiber of the martial art.

Any aspect of war was not a desire to fight, but, a desire to preserve a greater good and to give life in a way and not necesarily to take life. The taking of life ended up being a part of it, but, the ability to control self and to only take life if their's was the one being threatened was the intention, not just brutal unnecisary distruction of life.

The West has made the martial arts external and physical far more than they were originally intended and developed to be. The internal development of focus, self control, compasion, flexibilty, humility, emptiness, singularity with all things, self discipline, virtue, purpose, and the suchlike are not as much the focus in the West. The list of internal atributes is as long as life itself, my point is, martial arts are not exclusivly a Kata or technique for manifesting force or bodily movments to harm others....it has turned into that though, so, I play with the interanl arts and RV'do is internal. The war association with the martial arts is over played and over emphasized.

If you read the book of five rings for example, Musashi mentions all sorts of scary tactics and stratigy that lead to battle victory, but, he himself always reminds the reader of the real intent, the development of self, not the distruction of others.

The Unfettered Mind by Taukuan Soho, Musashi's favorite dude explains a lot of this stuff very clearly when he discribed the sword of Thai (spelling?) He mentions this sword that we all have in us and that it is to give us abilities that have nothing to do with war. It is a long story, well, actually a short book comprised of three letters he wrote to three different men in his day. Good reading and short....look it up...good stuff, it would help with this war/martial thing.

The ZEN way to Martial arts is the same.

The Bushido code is the same.

These and many other texts are not really just wanting war or pain or suffering for humanity, they desire development of humanity and the martial/war overtones are reflective of the far extreem of the continuum that exists in life in general. The East believes in the embrace of both extremes in order to obtain a true balance amoung all espects of life. The fullness of yin and yang embraces the extreems in order to bring balance, not be l;imited to one extreem or the other. Yin and yang is considered the "suprme ultimate", because it is the incorporation of both sides of the continuum, to the extreem, the law of oposites. So, yes, martial can mean war, but, it can alos mean....the other stuff with just as much substantiation.

It is all a matter of perspective and Damien, the perspective you desire and have is correct and yes the war aspect of it needs to not have the leading indentifying role when poeple define martial arts, so, with that in mind, RV can be considered a martial art, when the perspective during the consideration is not limited to the war aspect of the art.

By the way, Webster possibly has a little Western tweak he put into the word martial that causes the limited perspective of war being its primarry meaning.

BC the EC

mindchild, somewhere around August 7, 2003

I think also that martial arts can be very meditative. While studying Tai Chi I learned to do standing meditation, which took discipline and was very rewarding.

A family friend is a black belt in  many martial art disciplines and he never harms anyone.   He is able to reach out and touch a person's aura and they fall down, sounds bad, but he has used this at festivals by following policemen (at their request) and watching for people who would reach for their guns.  These people simply fall to the ground with him there, no body contact at all, and no one is harmed and the festivals continue to be pleasing for everyone.

Laurie

energycritter, somewhere around August 7, 2003

The standing art is I Chaun (mind boxing)....good stuff, I play with that one too, mixed with a little Chi Gong. ;-)

The no-touch knockout is a nice way to rendor someone harmless and done in a harmless way. :o

So many ways to see martail arts as not just war and harm. ;-)

BC the EC

Damien, somewhere around August 7, 2003

    Maybe the connotation 'martial art' is used for its aspects of study and dedication.  I would agree that the Masters and Grand Masters are mostly peaceful people that teach how to heal as well as to fight.  However, having studied matial arts and been around the public in general, I do know that some people get into martial arts to fight because they are pugilists.  Musashi the greatest swordsman to ever live, who wrote 'The Book of the Five Rings' may have come up with the secret to living peacefully, but he still killed many people.  I do not know of any form or style that teaches only defense and no attacking.  Maybe you can enlighten us V, but I don't think the gerneral public shares your depth of knowledge when regarding the phrase martial art.  No matter how you pull its meaning or its intent its still training to interact with another human being so as to cause harm.  Whether this knowledge is chosen to be used in defense or as an act of aggression is of course up to the individual.  
    It is with nearly %100 certainty that I believe our government has used Remote Viewing in an attempt to kill people.  Whether it be through experimental Remote Influencing attempts, or simply to find a location to bomb, the intent was surely there at one time.  I realize too, that many many good things have come from the sessions at Grillflame, Stargate, etc.  I would not be talking to you all in this forum about RV becuase it wouldn't exist in this form.  I am thankful for this.  Maybe they even got rid of some nasty chemical and biological agents, who knows.  The military however truly used it as a 'Martial Art' in the sense of war.  People are not ignorant they will make the connection.
    At the very least I'm asking people to be more careful the association they make with RV.  Lest we attract the kind of people who's morals and ethics have no bounds.  In their hands this medium of knowledge acquisition could be used to cause harm.

                                  I hope for the best,
                                                                 -)amien

energycritter, somewhere around August 7, 2003

I agree with you Damien and I feel your angle and perspective.

Yes, good concerns for sure.

It is something to keep a handle on for the good of all.

You intend well, friend....BC

mindchild, somewhere around August 7, 2003

Damien,
I see your point too.  Well taken.
Laurie

energycritter, somewhere around August 7, 2003

Damien, when Joe M. refers to the RV as being a RV’do, I think the “do” portion of his created term is the training and practice stuff more than the martial/war stuff discussed above. I do not remember for sure what the “do” as a suffix is in the Japanese or Chinese writings and rendering of terms. I need to look it up tonight.

So, Joe may be referring exclusively to the training practices and self disciplines of RV when he refers to it as RV’do, his tern to include the martial art aspect of it.

I am not sure though. I have read the term “do” so many times before, but, the meaning at this moment escapes me.

Nonetheless, good thread and good concern....

BC the EC

VSW, somewhere around August 7, 2003

Yes, no doubt, I agree 100% with your sentiment. I don't know if it's a really great comparison or association myself, only that the intent in doing so was likely to highlight those discipline, training type of things & certainly not the combative aspects that most associate with martial training. I could see someone saying early on about the RV training process itself,,,  'Yeah, well, the training is kinda like martial arts, but for the mind'.  

But absolutely I hear what you're saying.

You know me,,,, anal man!!  Heh :)


VSW

Atman, somewhere around August 7, 2003

    Foregive my limited understanding of Rv but it seems to me that the strict structure of the protocols is like a ritual that occupys the concious mind, while the sub-concious mind delivers the goods..?It keeps the concious mind and all its imaginative, doubting, egotistic aspects distracted while the subconcious mind gives your body the target, defeating the concious minds' defenses.Its like Wing Chun kung fu, mental grappling.

I know my greatest enemy is my self importance.It kicks my azz all the time.Rv seems to be a mental martial art that can help me defeat my greatest foe.

But , yes I agree, terminology should always be looked at and questioned less we not get to cornered by language.      Jon

energycritter, somewhere around August 8, 2003

Well put Atman, and if I remember correctly, the creater or Wing Chun Kung Fu didn't even want it to have a name at all. He wanted it to remain as addaptive as possible and therefore have no name.

As for the RV'do term, according to Taisen Deshimaru, in his book "The Zen Way to the Martial arts", the "do" means, path or way. A quote from the book, " Do, the way, is the method, the teaching that enables you to understand perfectly the nature of your own mind and self." end quote.

Atman said>>>I know my greatest enemy is my self importance.It kicks my azz all the time.Rv seems to be a mental martial art that can help me defeat my greatest foe. <<<<< You are correct Atman....we all face that same foe.... ::) :o

BC the EC

Damien, somewhere around August 8, 2003

     
     Ng Mui wouldn't be happy that you called her a man Bill, in fact she might just Wing Chun your butt :P  Wing Chun was the name of her first student, another girl supposedly.  That fighting style was designed for people with a small frame.  The name itself means Beautiful Springtime.  Kind of funny for such an intense style.
                                                            D

energycritter, somewhere around August 8, 2003

ooooops,  ::)

I was confusing her with Bruce Lee's term he used for his stuff. I can not remember what Bruce Lee called his stuff (......???Do...?  ???), he didn't want it to have a name though.

Oh well, one more thing that is at home and I am at work. Sheesh, I need to put my library at work, then I could avoid these mistakes. ;-)

Thanks for the correction. :)

Friendly regards, Bill

Fire, somewhere around August 8, 2003

Hi Damien,

I think your interpretation of martial arts is different than mine.  If I considered martial arts all about beating somebody up, then maybe comparing RV to it would seem like a stretch or at least a bias.  

But martial arts pursued properly are not just about how to kick.  They are about honor.  About discipline.  About acceptance.  About faith in oneself.  About courage.  About diligence.  And pursued in full, they are not about what you "do": martial arts are a way of life; they are a state of mind; they are a state of BEing.

In one of Joe's books where he talks about that he calls it RV'do -- because he compares it to a "way", a disciplined yet unquenchable curiosity that runs through your whole self, that runs through all of you, not just during practice, but through the fiber of your being and your whole life.

I have always been somewhat confused by the idea that RV allegedly had no tie to spirituality or in fact to anything outside a session.  I think in the effort to pry RV out of the 'muck' of religious and superstitious stuff, we sometimes pry a little too hard, and take off several good layers of concept that actually has value.  (Things like psychic defense-awareness being another.)

I usually say that psi, at least for me, is like a rushing river.  It doesn't come between 7 and 9pm on weeknights, when it's convenient.  It doesn't just show up when I sit down to do RV.  It's everywhere, you live and breathe it, and the more I'm actually practicing psi, the more of it is in my daily life--outside of sessions, never mind whatever might be IN them.

Martial arts pursued fully is very much like that.  The philosophies, the discipline, many aspects of them, affect one's entire life, not just during rondori or matches or street fights, but everywhere, all the time, in every aspect of your life.  Someone who has very seriously studied martial arts for 10 years, I am certain that they are going to be slightly different about how they do anything -- make dinner, make love, make some shelving for the laundry room -- than someone who has not.  The experience and effects of living with all of it every minute of the day change a person profoundly.

Now I realize that the US, and sometimes other places, often manages to strip a great deal of philosophy, honor and so forth out of martial arts, and reduce them to the shell of how to kick somebody's butt.  That is not the fault of martial arts though, that is the 'wonder bread' mentality of our culture.

Advanced martial artists are the least likely to engage in fighting of any humans I've ever encountered, up to and including people of the cloth.  So obviously, it is not about the violence mentality in the end.

As a last note, I do not believe that it is for me or anybody to state what anybody else's "duty" is--to themselves or to anybody else.  While we might have social reason to expect those who are leaders (self appointed, conspiratorially arranged, or nominated), or those who are gifted (in any way) to shoulder more of a burden of responsibility in our culture, I don't much agree in the case of RV at least.  

I do not believe good viewers have a 'duty' to use RV as I see fit, to accomplish things that I perceive as desireable.  I believe if every person were as true to themselves as possible, the entire planet would immensely benefit as a result.

As for methods or proving, what matters is viewing.  If you can provide accurate and useful data under proper double blind conditions, that's what matters.  Outside of that, only the ability to positively contribute to one's own development, and if one chooses, to the social culture of RV as a support tool, is all that matters in my eyes.

PJ

wizopeva, somewhere around August 8, 2003

Well I can understand both sides.   I've heard it said that rv is like a martial art because it requires mental discipline, training, and protocols, and also because it comes through your body a lot and so involves training the body as well as the mind into a cohesive machine.  Howeever, where I think it breaks down is the with the term 'martial.'  I don't care you you want to swing it, learning a martial art is about fighting, even if it means learning fighting might mean in the end that you get into fewer fights.  It still means that you are learning to fight and the world 'martial' is right in the terminology itself, surely for a reason one would think.

 I just can't compare sitting in a chair and writing or laying on a couch and speaking into a taperecorder as learning how to fight.  The only exception might be if it's ri, which could be similar to mental fighting.  Or some people might say rv is like fighting your own inner self.  But if so, I'd say that it sounds more like psychology if it's yourself that you are fighting.  I tend to think in actuality that some of the reason that rv is often compared to martial arts is because a lot of those in rv are former military and male (although both of those things are changing now..) and so activities like martial arts are things that would be considered favorable comparisons, certainly more so that self help psychology.  LOL!  I mean, why not compare rv to clinical psychology, or maybe painting (requires discipline and practice) or maybe detective work?  If you ask me, there are other more apt analogies that have been skipped over.  But those analogies just are trendy.  
-E

energycritter, somewhere around August 9, 2003

Holy Chit....Eva and Fire, I love to read this stuff and to see the different perspectives.

While reading  PJ's post I was thinking how well she did explaining it, then, I got to Eva's post and while reading it I was thinking how well explianed that perspective was.

Too cool....this board is such a great way to learn anything, just sit back and read, play a little and learn a lot.

BC the EC

Don_Williams, somewhere around August 9, 2003

Hi,
I don't know how to cut and paste here or how to quote someone, so I'll do it by hand:  

Eva wrote:
"I don't care how you want to swing it, learning a martial art is about fighting."
and
"I can't compare sitting in a chair and writing or laying on a couch and speaking into a tape recorder as learning how to fight."

Eva,
Saying that learning a martial art is about learning how to fight is analagous to saying that learning to be a composer is about learning how to make sounds come out of inanimate material objects we call instruments.  These descriptions convey nothing of the tremendous amounts of work done within the solitude of your own mind,  the internal intensity; the constant perceiving, weighing , measuring, and adjusting of your own thoughts, emotions, and patterning judgements.  They don't describe anything of the working through the cacophony of possibilities, the shifting and rolling inclinations you have and your accompanying emerging awareness of them as you develop.  They say nothing of the soaring, crystal-clear beauty of the final polished result of all your hard internal work that only you will ever know - and the resulting inner peace that comes with it, the way you end up being a changed person through nothing but your own efforts aimed at something that seems to be pretty much external - and the way this happens over and over again in a neverending process of change for both the martial arts student and for the musical composer.    

This idea of martial arts as being about fighting barely scratches the surface of what martial arts are all about.  I got my black belt in Tae Kwon Do 17 years ago when I was 20 years old.  I went on to study Aikado, 5-Animal style Gung Fu,  Jeet Kune Do, and Tai Chi.  The impulse that kept me wanting to learn more and study other styles had nothing at all to do with fighting.  It originated from the internal growth that came with studying martial arts, the awareness of my core being, of my own faults and weaknesses as a human being and then the joy of the work I put in to try to change and overcome those faults, and finally, the realization that I had changed myself.

If you took almost any activity, say chopping wood, for example; and practiced it over and over, daily, and strived to learn to do it as perfectly and with the most simple beauty possible, I'd bet the inner changes that one can gain through martial arts would happen the same way over time.  It's different from psychology in that the advances and developments the practicioner makes come through a seemingly intuitive process, but *not* by focusing on your own psyche directly.  The process comes by focusing your efforts seemingly outward, externally, in the physical, material plane.  But you begin to realize that the real struggle to completely perfect whatever your mode is, is internal - that the key to making a perfect axe swing and splitting a piece of wood perfectly with almost no effort at all, for example, is inside yourself.  To do so, you must reach a mental state of clear, pristine emptiness.  It's a place where, when you are sparring with your master or another student and you are both in that state, time seems to slow down and you can exchange knowing smiles from each other in the midst of of a flurry of blazing moves that seem lightning-fast to outside observers.  Only you and the person you are sparring with are there in that  timeless state.  By the time you have learned to attain this state, once you can do so again and again, and after doing it consistently in practice; you begin to become a changed person.  The attatchments and trappings of the world we are so caught up in begin to fall away and you are then able to see the things that are really important.  The great musical composer, the martial arts master, the great RVers, they are all striving to reach this place and to stay in it, I think.  One of the real joys of martial arts is that you can share that state with someone you are sparring with, although I think the real learning you can gain from it comes when you are going through your forms alone.  I think it's best described with the Japanese word "Zen".  

RV compares to martial arts in that way.  The struggle is all internal and the most important changes that take place do not have to do with how well you can perceive the elements of a picture within an envelope, or with how well you can execute a perfect spinning back kick - although on the surface those things seem to be the goal.  Those things are only the "do", the *way* - the method you have chosen for the ultimate, most important changes, the internal ones having to do with who and what you are as a human being and a conscious, sentient part of the universe you are exploring.  I think that's the main way RV is like martial arts.  Fighting has almost nothing to do with it.

I think this idea is linked with the reasons Joe says that philosophical and spiritual growth are bound up inseperably from the practice of RV.  If you really practice RV hard and consistently, just as with martial arts, philosophical and spiritual growth will occur.

Okay, now that I've tried to speak for Joe and elaborate on "what he really meant", lol, I'll shut up.  Joe'd probably give me a roundhouse kick upside the head and say "That's not what I meant at all, Grasshopper", lol!
Best Regards,
Don      

energycritter, somewhere around August 9, 2003

I loved reading that Don...thanks...I hope Joe doesn't do the head kick thing...he he...I think you did a great honor to him in render what you rendered the way you did.

The No-mind, No-thought (emptiness) that you discribed and how it slowed things down for you and your inmediate sparring partner is a great thing. The smile between you two during the speed flury, as it appears on the outside, is so true and beautiful. It is easy to see how the honor thing has played such a big role in the East, what an honorable state of being to discribe as taking place during the sparring.

The internal work required to achieve such states of being is the art.

The ZEN way to martial arts...

BC the EC

admin, somewhere around August 9, 2003

Gee whiz Don, there's something I didn't know about you! -- didn't realize you were a martial artist, too.  Is there anything you don't do to the extreme?  ;-)

wizopeva, somewhere around August 9, 2003

[quote]Hi,
I don't know how to cut and paste here or how to quote someone, so I'll do it by hand:  

Eva wrote:
"I don't care how you want to swing it, learning a martial art is about fighting."
and
"I can't compare sitting in a chair and writing or laying on a couch and speaking into a tape recorder as learning how to fight."

Eva,
Saying that learning a martial art is about learning how to fight is analagous to saying that learning to be a composer is about learning how to make sounds come out of inanimate material objects we call instruments.  These descriptions convey nothing of the tremendous amounts of work done within the solitude of your own mind,  .....(snip)


Although I said I thought martial arts is about fighting, I never meant to imply that it was ONLY about fighting.  Obviously, there is a great deal more to it beyond that, such as you have enumerated.   And I never meant to imply that rv cannot be compared to martial arts, only that I though there were more apt analogies that made way more sense to me personally, even if not to others.  And although I said that I felt the martial arts comparison is often used because of the trendy factor, in no way did I wish to malign the practice of martial arts itself.  On the contrary, I have a great respect and personal affinity for such practice.  

I come from a military family so I think that has helped me see how a military mindset tends to color people's perspectives.  IMO, one's experiences and upbringing will always color a person's perspectives and opinions.  I find it useful for myself to sometimes step back and try to observe such things from an objective view.  I often write of my observations from that perspective.  In this case, I suspect that martial arts is something that most of military orientation can easily identify with and feel proud of and I also suspect that is one of a number of factors as to why such a comparison is often used by those from a military background.  That's all that was meant.
-E  

Don_Williams, somewhere around August 10, 2003

Hi PJ,
I wouldn't call myself a martial artist - at least not anymore.  I was into it pretty heavy from the time I was 17 until I was 26 or 27, but that's ten years ago.  After back surgery, my poor spine isn't up to it anymore.   The only advanced degree I ever got was in Tae Kwon Do.  I got into Animal style Gung Fu pretty indepth but the others I only spent a year or two studying.  I've known some awesome martial artists and I wouldn't dare to put myself in that category, lol.  I mentioned the tae Kwon Do to you before once when we were talking about meditation.  I guess you forgot.
Warm Regards,
Don

Don_Williams, somewhere around August 10, 2003

Eva,
I think you're right in that there are other things that RV can be better compared to than martial arts.  Actually, I think meditation or the training people go through in some of the Hindu sects are a more apt analogy in many ways.  

I didn't intepret your post as maligning martial arts at all.  No offense taken, :-).  I think I know what you mean about people with a military mindset, although there's no one in my immediate family who made a career out of military service.  I've never even been in the service at all, so my comparisons of RV to martial arts may not even be exactly what Joe had in mind when he wrote about that.  
Warm Regards,
Don

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