Topic [97] ideograms TKR Remote Viewing Forum August 2003

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energycritter, somewhere around August 6, 2003

When RVing, do poeple have the same symbols for the same meanings, or, do you just make marks and then figure out what they mean?

In the CRV manual, it was long ago when I read it, but, if I remember correctly, it seemed like it said that the ideograms were consitant and our mind rendered the same symbol or marking for the same representation from person to person while RVing. I am most likely misrepresenting the text completely.

I was just wondering if I am to develope or remember the symbols, like mentioned in the TDS document of Pru's or do you just make random and reckless markings and then try to make something of them later.

I think I have already made to big of a deal out of the issue.....I am artistic in a legal rigid way, meaning, I am not real creative with my drawing of anything, I am too exact....I am good at archetecture and drafting, but, not free flowing art stuff...water colors used to freak me out due to the runs and drips....I like a nice neat line...crayons were not my friend in school, I wanted to stay in the lines....

I know..."step away from the box and no one will be hurt"...he he ;-)

aaaahhhhh, yet another box of mine....crap... ::) ::)

I will climb out of this one..... ;-)

BC the EC

polkadotpuhjommies, somewhere around August 6, 2003

[quote]yet another box of mine....crap[/quote]

perhaps you might consider going into the box manufacturing business   :P

Here is how I use ideograms:
Right after I state my intent, I immediately do an ideogram (doodle).  I don't do it, I just let what ever happens, happen. takes 3 seconds and is about 1 inch big. It won't look like anything but a doodle.  After this, there is a process on how to read/interp the ideogram.

The ideograms that are 'set' are really a shorthand language you can create for yourself. Instead of having to break concentration to write the word(s) you can have a pre-established vocab for yourself.  

Don't get hung up on this part. It will come sooner or later. Just focus on doing some target sessions using whatever feels natural at the moment.  As you progress and get comfortable doing targets at all, you can add the other skills.  If you wait until you get 'all the rules' down pat first, you will never even start.  

Make you box, stand on top of it and jump off!!  Just jump in and do it.  After you do a few, many of your questions will answer themselves ( which of course, are replaced with 'new' questions  :-/ )

Nike said it best 'JUST DO IT'

energycritter, somewhere around August 6, 2003

Thanks...... ;)

wizopeva, somewhere around August 6, 2003

There are a number of viewpoints on this question of ideograms.  Lyn Buchanan of CRV would most likely say that yes there are commonalities in that some of the symbols are similar across lots of people.  But he'd also probably say that ideograms are still unique to you and only you can learn to interpret them.  Yours may or may not be the same as someone else's and which ones you develop are greatly dependent on your own personality, interests, and experiences.

THen on the other hand PRu and some other trainers feel that ideos have an inherent appearance to them, perhaps a bit like the universal unconscious and are usually easily distinguished between viewers.

Then there is my perspective which is that ideos are an agreement that is worked out between the conscious and subconscious minds whereby a language is hacked out so that the two can talk.  And I believe Lyn's approach gives a tad more say to the unconscious whereas Pru's approach puts more of the power to the conscious mind to dictate the basic rules.   I suspect either way can work, especially if a bit of leeway is given on the details...
-E

energycritter, somewhere around August 7, 2003

Thanks eva....>>>I suspect either way can work, especially if a bit of leeway is given on the details...
<<<<

leeway on the details may work better for me while in the medatative state of mind than it has worked while fully conscious and cranking out thought. Like I said, I can be too legal about what and how I render things. Too technical, precise and whatnot.

My wife has given me a family art project that I plan to use as a way to help me express artisticly out of the technical perfect rendering box that I ussually live in.

I need to scribble and doodle more and render exactly, less.

Thanks, BC the EC

waterway, somewhere around August 7, 2003

I think ideograms work as a "witness", an object we find attributes in that relate to attributes of the tasked object.

See.. in this weeks theory on how RV works, I think the subconscious connections are based on related characteristics of "things" or concepts in the mind.  The ideogram is drawn by the subconscious, then relates the drawing to the tasked object by some association.   In Warcollier's book he notes that often simple "characteristics" of a tasked object are viewed, such as an angle, or a simple shape.  Its these simple aspects, characteristics or properties of objects that are connections in our brain, and that is how the subconscious relates aspects of the task to the ideogram, and how we relate those aspects to things we know.  

None of that is original, its pulled from bits of lots of writers... but it helps me understand.

What do you think of that?

energycritter, somewhere around August 7, 2003

What do I think....I think I like this subject...he he

This is good stuff....it seems that the ideograms are another way to render something, what that something is is subjective and depends on the person.

It seems a lot can be learned about and from ideograms, depending on the persons expression.

I look forward to trying to render in whatever way I end up doing so....I know I have trouble in this area of life, rendering a drawing or marks of any kind tend to stirr in me a lot of interesting personal limitations of expression and I look forward to getting over some issues by trying the loose rendering that appear to be ideograms. I am so used to knowing absolutly why I made a mark and what it means, the ideogram thing seems like a new welcoming frontier for me.....

Thanks, BC the EC

waterway, somewhere around August 7, 2003

Well EC, this whole RV gig is quite useful for personal therapy, right? ;)  Go for it.  

Go grab that "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" and work out those fears of expression.  btw, when it says "drawing on the right side of the brain" it doesn't mean it literally!  So here I am stuck with a bone-saw I will hopefully never use....

..... but back to the issue of ideograms.  Since we are looking at the ideogram as a "witness", you could use tea-leaves or bones or scrambled-eggs as your witness,  (separately, of course)  instead of a drawn ideogram.    But I think working on your graphical expression will be be doubly helpful...

energycritter, somewhere around August 7, 2003

WW

>>>Well EC, this whole RV gig is quite useful for personal therapy, right? <<<<

Yes....it sure is.... ;) ;-)

as for the scrambled eggs, I can express very well through those...he he.....put thim in the skillet without breaking the yoke....let them cook until the white is 70% cooked...then do a little folding over as the scrambling with cheese on top and seasoning before folding over, then, do not over scramble, leave big chunks of yoke and big chunks of white....cook a little more, but, do not over cook and dry them out. Yum, now you have bites that are yoky and rich with flavor and cheesy....mmmmmmmmmmmmm ;-) ;-)

I need to start a topic/thread on RV as therapy.... ;-)

BC the EC

waterway, somewhere around August 7, 2003

.... yer making me hungry.  Its lunch time here on the East coast.....

....I didn't mean express yourself through eggs.... I mean using the scrambled eggs as an object to look at to let the subconscious "see" RV info in them, like a tea-leaf reader does.  

...hey, on the other hand... you may have something here.... (not that I ever doubted that...) but what if you plopped the egg in the pan, and then let your subconscious mind control the hand that stirs them while they cook.  Then remove the pan from the heat as they form, and look into the scrambled eggs to get RV info!  Sort of a "short-order" PSI session!  

Oh, for you vegans, you can use scrambled tofu instead.

...hmmm.... time for lunch....  I will RV using my tabulli at lunch to find out what we are having for dinner....

energycritter, somewhere around August 7, 2003

It sounds like we are actually able to find meaning in everything if we can open up to such a notion.

hhhhhmmmmm

Could the SC mind, or for that matter, the entire collective of all existance, be trying to comunicate at all times through any thing we are doing....like the tyea-leaves, bones and whatnot....we throw them down and look for anything that is something...we scribble and then look for anything about it to be something?

hhhhhmmmmm

BC the EC

waterway, somewhere around August 7, 2003

EC asked:

[color=Red]"Could the SC mind, or for that matter, the entire collective of all existance, be trying to comunicate at all times through any thing we are doing...."[/color]

[color=Blue]Yes, I think so.[/color]

energycritter, somewhere around August 7, 2003

I think so too......the trouble is, to be able to distinguish the differences between comunication from the higher-self, SC, during random activity and outcomes during daily life and rutine.

I would consider the idea of being good at that to be similar to being in a state of Buddha, or, the "awake one."

We all must be sleep walking as we do what we do awake.....if we could only remember what our awake dreams are telling us about our imediate moments that we live in while sleep walking.

ZZZZzzzZZZZzzzzZZZZZzzzzzZZZZzzzzZZZZZzzzz

BC the EC

waterway, somewhere around December 9, 2003

I have heard it said that ideograms and the "symbols" pulled out in RV change over time.

Why?

energycritter, somewhere around December 9, 2003

By saying "over time", do you mean the time that goes by in the life of a particular RVer and their practice and duration of their time in life spent RVing or are you refering to time that simply goes by, without regard to a particular person or their personal changes?

I am curious what the answer to your question will be....I have been thinking about ideograms a lot lately....I often feel like my hand has an ideagram inside of it and then when I try to let it out, I end up not knowing how to release it onto paper, but, my hand still feels anxious to render something.....

I guess I was wondering if you were wondering if the ideograms evolve with the collective effort of the collective consciousness of man as man evolves or are you refering to a more localized and personable time reference that belongs, so to speak, to the individual?

just curious and had the moment to post....

regards

admin, somewhere around December 9, 2003

Hi EC,

[quote]When RVing, do poeple have the same symbols for the same meanings, or, do you just make marks and then figure out what they mean?[/quote]

Either extreme or somewhere in the middle, it depends on the person, method, tradition.  Some have pre-set ideograms they attempt to train themselves to exactly match.  Some let ideograms spontaneously form (well, that is the nature of ideograms--spontaneous) and then compare to targets and gradually figure out, this means that, etc.  Some generally have the second approach but do take the effort to use a few basics that are fairly common to many (not all) people in RV.  Lyn Buchanan (who teaches CRV) has an ideogram computer program that you can put words into and then 'practice' ideograms, "drills", on paper.

As an example of commonalities in ideograms (if such a thing can be said to exist), flat line is often land.  90 degree angle may be manmade.  Fast jaggy points is often energy (fire is a type of energy); single point triangle is often mountain or related gestalt.  The id for water sometimes looks just like you'd draw it in a childish pic; the id for person may be a CCW standing loop.  The id for animal is sometimes similar to that of humans or sometimes a drop loop instead.  These are mine and those of some people I have known; but it varies a bit of course.

Ideograms can also come as something like pictograms; such as the water and mountain and land ids, they are rather pictographic; trees may come through as multiple vertical lines for example.  Sometimes early-stage sketch pieces are pictographic as well (early in a session it isn't a whole sketch, more like little pieces of the site), for example if I have the sudden urge to sketch and it looks like just like 'ocean' is drawn in ancient maps and kids' pictures (the waves), I know it's water (usually shoreline).

I don't have the ref on hand but in summary, an ideogram is assumed to be when the target info 'impacts' the physical body and the resulting 'little scribble' is the combination of the target and the person venting, so to speak.  So, unless the person is using a methodology where they train hard to a shape and don't let themselves vary, usually ideograms will change--as a person changes.  Not all of them probably, but some, some mildly and some totally.

[quote]In the CRV manual, it was long ago when I read it, but, if I remember correctly, it seemed like it said that the ideograms were consistant and[/quote]
Ideograms as a practice were developed by French research Rene Warcollier.  His book "Mind to Mind," has now been republished by Hampton Roads and Russell Targ in their Classics in Consciousness / Studies in Consciousness series.

[quote]or do you just make random and reckless markings and then try to make something of them later.[/quote]
Well that pretty much sums up what you'll be doing with most of your session data never mind ideograms. LOL!

PJ

waterway, somewhere around December 10, 2003

Mr. McMoneagle commented that he has found that once you label an ideogram, its definition seems to change.  

Why would this occur?

energycritter, somewhere around December 10, 2003

Hiya PJ and WW..... ;-)

Possibly the original label was not as accurate as it was originally considered to be, then, upon optaining more feedback, so to speak, the label tends to evolve and contain a more complete rendition of content and context....hhhhhmmmm????

I would guess that we tend to assume we are aware of enough information to create a label when we first create one, but, I would also guess that the assumtion would most likely contain only a portion of what is really true about the label or ideogram.

It would seem that ample validation and feedbaak maybe needed before a label can truly be consider accurate or truly be considered a "label"....I am not sure about any of this though, I am just getting more and more used to not allowing anything that I think I know to be something that I think I know.....LOL

How do they say it, you know, those theys, "you can not judge an ideogram by its cover", wait, "you can not judge a label by its ideogram", wait, "you can not judge an ideogram by its label", wait, "you can not judge a book by the label of its ideogram".....LOL....this type of spinning is all part of the fun and exploritory pleasure of the human experience.....I think....LOL....yee freaking haw....

energycritter, somewhere around December 10, 2003

[quote]Hi EC,

I don't have the ref on hand but in summary, an ideogram is assumed to be when the target info 'impacts' the physical body and the resulting 'little scribble' is the combination of the target and the person................usually ideograms will change--as a person changes.  Not all of them probably, but some, some mildly and some totally.

PJ[/quote]

This impact that you mentioned seems to be what I feel in my hand when I feel like I need to render something and I have no idea what it is and I am not even doing a session.

It happens when I try and sit and write in my journal or even when I want to just doodle on a chunk of scratch paper. I have actually had this sensation most of my life....as far as I can remeber....it can often be such a strong feeling that I am unable to writing anything and I just sit and trip out on how much I feel like rendering and how much I resist the feeling because I am not sure what I am rendering.

When I have rendered during this sensation, the markings are nonsensecal (spelling, sorry) and they tend to be a combination of curves and straight lines and all of it is rendered with such impact or power as if there is something behind it that drives it.....these markings can be very tiny too as well as full page scribbles and can be as simple as the making of a Zen circle....

In fact, I just realized/remebered that I have resorted to makeing more and more Zen circles just as a means to release the energy and my Zen circles have been turning out fabulous and very round....LOL...I can make Zen circles of all sizes and I end up covering a large portion of my paper with them. I have some pages in my journal that are actually nothing but Zen circles of all sizes and when I am done I label the order that I made them during the rendering because they can become so round that I like to know at what point during the circle session that I got into the Zen-zone of the circle....LOL

When I end up having the time to do so, I plan on learning some Japanese coligraphy and suchlike so that I can try and play with other forms of rendering markings. When I do the art thing, I tend to be so literal, that I can become dysfunctional and my art project can be delayed for a long long time....I need to open up and work towards a more liberal art expression.

Even before my formal embrace of RV, I have always felt like target info, so to speak, was right on the tip of my tongue and/or right on the tip of my fingers.

Either way, fun stuff....

admin, somewhere around December 11, 2003

[quote]Mr. McMoneagle commented that he has found that once you label an ideogram, its definition seems to change.   Why would this occur?[/quote]
That's a good question.  I don't know.  I can sort of casually theorize from my comfortable armchair though, I love doing that.  ;-)

I find that when you're helping a child learn to talk, first they have to learn to recognize a major word or pattern in association with a given thing.  

For example, a CAT, this is a cat, and they finally get that.

Once they learn that, you tell them, "Leave the kitten alone," and they go, "It's not a kitten!  It's a CAT!"  And boy are they adamant, lol.  

The minute they think they get a handle on the meaning of the word, they find that actually, the meaning isn't nearly as clear as they thought it was.  Either it only applies to only some situations or things depending, or it applies to all of them but there are other words that are more specific, etc.

It's like learning a foreign language--especially English--and being proud to have learned a few words, only to find out there are all these words that sound exactly alike but are spelled diff, or are identical but have a different meaning, not to mention this thing where in english you often don't know how a word is pronounced until you get to the end of the sentence (e.g., "to read a book" vs. "and he read the book".) and so forth.  Every time you think you have something down, as soon as you get to that level, it branches out in multiple options, abstractions, conditional usages, and all kinds of other considerations.

I wonder if maybe this relates to why Ids change over time.  Perhaps finally understanding one moves you to the next level, and the mind is now ready for more specifics.  E.g., now that you have 'cat', your mind is ready to get into Kitty, Kitten, feline, tom, etc.  Suddenly your mind is no longer saying 'cat' but rather, 'baby snow leopard'--and suddenly you're going, "Whoa, that ideogram just changed!"

As an example most viewers start out with an id for 'water' but eventually, they get into shoreline (or "land-water interface").  But to start it's usually just water.  I used to get 'manmade' for a round castle tower; now I am more likely to get 'stone' and 'structure' and perhaps 'engineered/designed' or something.  I think it's just the mind opening up to more subtleties over time.

Best regards,
PJ

energycritter, somewhere around December 18, 2003

Along the lines of the target impacting the viewer, well, kind of along those lines…..has anyone ever considered an entity impacting a human so that the human renders the entities symbol or name through an ideogram? I mean, could an entity impact a human to render the entities symbol and thereby make it possible for the entity to come into our world through the rendering of their name, so to speak?

The reason that I ask is because I have had many impacting ideogram moments when the rendered markings resemble the symbols that are actual names of entities within the magik books that have the names rendered.

I am just curious if you have ever heard of an entity wanting or trying to render/manifest their own existence through the ideogram of an unsuspecting person that is going with the flow of an ideogram during an RV moment or any other moment for that matter?

ec

polkadotpuhjommies, somewhere around September 2, 2004

I thought I remembered a thread about ideograms and found this one. Instead of starting a new one, guess even though this one is so old it's grown whiskers, it's ok to continue on with this one.

I haven't read the posts here since the first time around, so I'm hoping what I post now fits in with what has already been said .

I read: [quote]Language affects how we think and respond. The very process of converting experience into language requires that we delete, distort, and generalize how we perceive the world. These are our filters that we use that makes each one of us unique. NLP also provides questions and patterns to make communication more as we intend. It is understood that words are only 7% of communication so would understanding what the other 97% of communication is be important to you?[/quote]

I am posting this not as an NLP endorsement, but as how this comment relates to our remote viewing sessions....when we need to capture the sensations, impressions and all the other data we receive etc and then have to translate them into words.

When first attempting ideograms, I didn't like it...got nothing but scribbles (and I'm an artist) and it bugged me that I couldn't at least come up with something that didn't look like a 2 year olds rendering. This went on for a while.

The next step was that of capturing shapes, outlines, heights as I sensed them...the ideograms started getting better. I could with one drawn line express a direction or an angle without misusing words to describe..which helped me keep clarity in what I was sensing. When I saw that this was on the right track I decided to try to be more defined.

After this came rough sketches. This was more difficult because I had to make sure I wasn't labeling something specific. For example: if sensing a mountain range, I wouldn't say 'ah ha! mountains' I would simply outline the shape of what I was seeing/sensing...not draw mountains...an important distinction. The ideograms starting getting better and were actually identifying target aspects.

I am still in the above mode but sense that I am starting to get the hang of this and will eventually start producing some worthwhile drawings. I am a highly visual person and can capture seemingly volumes of info in a split second (the picture being worth a 1000 words concept)...the problems come in translations... putting all of this into words.

I've noticed that since the sketches have gotten better, so has my ability to capture more of the essence of the target. This ties in somewhat with Murphys current thread having to do with his drawings and his saying he felt his drawings gave more information than giving words to his other senses...that initially, the information is more pure when drawn/sketched. It has since been discussed that the drawings can then be probed for more and other types of data.

I have come to see that what I originally discounted is in fact an important part of an RV session...matter of fact in daydreaming/thinking as well...guess this is where the 'doodles' come into play. Enhancing our doodles might be a good stepping stone to better ideograms?

Somewhere, I have an interesting exercise on how to hold an image that is in our minds for longer than a nanosecond...it says it's possible to work up to minutes. I'm still looking for it. Will post it when it surfaces.

Benton, somewhere around September 3, 2004

Hey, good post.  

Dig up Warcollier's "Mind to Mind" (look, there is a picture of it over on the right... just scroll down) or Ingo Swann's "Natural ESP".  They are both great, and deal with simple drawings though not directly with ideograms.  

In my simple education, the ideogram is just a mark on the paper to start the connection to the target.  Simple drawings come later and strengthen our relationship to the target within the "nexus" of info.  

I just finished the Ingo Swann book, its a great read about drawing and the experience of RV.

admin, somewhere around September 3, 2004

The ideogram is an ideomotor (subconscious muscle) response (word) to the 'impact' of the target upon the remote viewer.  

You are not so much 'making' a mark as beginning it and 'allowing' your body to carry it into a 'small scribble' that contains information about the target as perceived by the viewer.

Generally this is the most basic, broad level of information about the target, which some call the 'Gestalt'. It's difficult to translate since the translation results in an over-literal english interpretation, but suffice to say it's the "overall primary nature of" the target--and there may be more than one.

In remote viewing methodologies this is taught beginning with a few basics, such as land, water, mountain, manmade.  

Some methods have pre-set 'shapes' for this that are practiced and ideograms are supposed to be limited to those shapes.  

Other methods let the viewer practice on gestalts and see what the body does, and use the body's own language and practice that.

Still others are more interested in the 'feel' of the ideogram when being made, in the process of it, and are not as concerned with deciphering it analytically as in other ways.

If the methodology allows it, ideograms can expand to a good sized vocabulary all their own.

Information may be symbolic, or may be pictographic. For example, 'trees' may be lots of little vertical lines (or not). I often get "ideogram AOLs" -- I see pictures in them essentially--which are right a marked amount of the time they occur.

For example the other day, viewing a next-day newspaper headline, I had an "Id-aol" of "a man with his pants down; a think a politico or actor, someone very public, has been caught or accused of doing something bad."  Not that this would be a stretch to find in a newspaper lol.  Anyway, the title was something like, XYZ (a man) accused of something, corruption and incompetence.  A few days before I had an "Id-aol" of a pair of baggy-hip pants, the sort that "round" from the waist to the knee.  The target happened to have someone wearing exactly those kind of pants.  Obviously these examples were not primary gestalts--but I use many ideograms in  my sessions so I tend to get a lot besides that.

There are some commonalities in "most" viewer ideograms, such as that a 90 degree angle represents "manmade", a mountain shape is likely mountain, water-type things are likely water, flat lines likely land, often decent loops represent people, sharp back&forth may represent energy or sudden event, things like that.

It depends on the viewer though. Some viewers can have an id others can barely tell from a flat line and read it into 40 different things.  -)epends on the whether the viewer works more by 'process' and feel than by result and analytical matching.

More than you wanted to know I bet!

PJ

polkadotpuhjommies, somewhere around September 3, 2004

[quote]The ideogram is an ideomotor (subconscious muscle) response (word) to the 'impact' of the target upon the remote viewer.  [/quote]

sigh..... :-/ well, gee.... I forgot I knew that. :P    It's back to 101 for me  :(

[quote]Other methods let the viewer practice on gestalts and see what the body does, and use the body's own language and practice that. [/quote]

....and this gave me an idea! (oh noooooooo) Instead of me learning an already developed ideogram language I decided to create my own. Why? Because it makes sense to me that I already have a language within me...all I have to do is develop it. Maybe this has already been done, but I've not heard of it before...so I'm going to try this: to start, using basic simple geometric shapes as well as things such as tree, airplane, rock, car, fish and maybe the basic colors. I'll find pictures of whatever items I relate to, cut them out and mount them on index cards....maybe starting with a dozen.

modified to ad: I failed to mention that I would regard these cards as I would an RV target in that I wouldn't know which card I was sensing.

    My first pass through the cards will be to sense each card and do an ideogram as you described...just letting whatever happen, move onto the next card and do the same. After doing all the cards, I'll test the results by shuffling the cards, maybe adding in a few new ones and noting if I have the same ideogram as I did the first time. If I see that I'm duplicating the ideograms, I'll make a 3rd pass to confirm. When finished, I would expect to have a primary language...custom made.  I'll keep building on this until I have most of the basics covered...manmade, water, structure etc.

    If this works, creating a pictoral reference would be helpful for future sessions. A car might be different than a boat but have similar lines, curves etc. Then again, it may be the same and then you would have an ideogram for perhaps transportation, vehicle etc.

    Maybe all this isn't worth the effort...but given my drive, that's not enough to stop me from trying. I won't have the answer(s) to this idea until I try it out. This is somewhat reinventing the wheel, but I won't get bogged down in trying to fit someone else's language to fit my own.

[quote]There are some commonalities in "most" viewer ideograms, such as that a 90 degree angle represents "manmade", a mountain shape is likely mountain, water-type things are likely water, flat lines likely land, often decent loops represent people, sharp back&forth may represent energy or sudden event, things like that. [/quote]

It was in reading this that gave me the idea I just explained. I'm wondering how the commonalties were determined...do you know?  Maybe in the same manner as I described in my idea? One of my quirks is that of not just doing what someone else does just because...and for sure, I've made some things harder than need be, but I always learn something about a process this way and I learn about myself... (stubborn, determined  while being creative and resourceful LOL)
   
.... and as an aside, JUST WHO decided what the chakras do? Who decided where what happens and why ? I've asked and asked this over the years and I've yet to learn of an answer other than 'way back when' Best I can see so far is that the placement of body organs, parts  and all the other stuff pretty much determine a relationship type thinking...but this would be another topic elsewhere on the forum.

[quote]More than you wanted to know I bet! [/quote]

Nope.  I'll use this opportunity to thank you PJ for all the efforts you put forth sharing all that your experiences have shown and taught you. You have an impressive amount of knowledge at your disposal and we have all benefited from it. Your postings in the Murphys thread have been excellent.  In all these postings within TKR, I can't say I recall many direct thank yous...so this one is for you.

polkadotpuhjommies, somewhere around September 3, 2004

errrr....I forgot...

And the matrix thanks you too!  ;-)

(are we gonna need the foil hats for this matrix thingy?)

admin, somewhere around September 4, 2004

Hi pdPJ,

[quote]Instead of me learning an already developed ideogram language I decided to create my own. Why? Because it makes sense to me that I already have a language within me...all I have to do is develop it. Maybe this has already been done, but I've not heard of it before...[/quote]
Some RV methodologies teach that approach.

Ids change, though.  It's like once you figure it out, things move in another level.  I guess it's like, when a child learns the word 'kitten', they don't understand how a kitten can be a cat (my kid argued fiercely lol).  But following their first learning comes the second, and then how 'feline' can describe ALL cats even tigers, and then how 'Tom' only means a male cat, and so forth--even something as simple as that actually has a lot of opportunities for subtlety.

I generally get two kinds of meanings from ideograms: first the crude (what it looks like), then the 'feel' (what it felt like when making it).  Sometimes it takes time to learn to pay attention during that brief moment.

[quote]so I'm going to try this: to start, using basic simple geometric shapes as well as things such as tree, airplane, rock, car, fish and maybe the basic colors. I'll find pictures of whatever items I relate to, cut them out and mount them on index cards....maybe starting with a dozen.[/quote]
That'll work.  I would advice starting with not more than 6 though.

[quote]If I see that I'm duplicating the ideograms, I'll make a 3rd pass to confirm. When finished, I would expect to have a primary language...custom made.  I'll keep building on this until I have most of the basics covered...manmade, water, structure etc.[/quote]
Logically, it sounds easier than it is in practice. ;-)  They are not always consistent.  And targets very seldom have only one or two gestalts. And it generally works as though the minute you get something down, the kaleidascope turns, and they're trying to tell you something different, or they change because now they are telling you something more complex.  For example an id for 'person', were it a under-loop, might have multiple loops. Two might be larger. That might indicate multiple people, two of which are prominant in some way.  (A recent practice session of mine had that.)  But you have to get that several times before you understand it.  And there are so many options that in the end, what it mostly requires is CONSTANT persevering practice.  Which of course, would improve things from any angle, with or without ideograms. ;-)

Gotta run,
PJ

Benton, somewhere around September 9, 2004

In my humble efforts, I do the ideogram and then ask myself "what is that?" and go from there.  Though the ideograms of different targets may be similiar, when I am pulling out info, the curved line may mean one thing one target and something different the next.  

I have not "trained" myself to use a loop for this aspect, a 90 degree angle for that aspect of the target, etc.  But I wonder if that would help.  As I mentioned early in this thread, I view the ideogram as a "witness", or a jumping on point to the target info.  

I think essential to using an ideogram is strong intent to the target info.  Without strong intent, the ideogram is just a doodle, IMHO.

admin, somewhere around September 9, 2004

A few years ago I wrote an article-post (somewhere, lol) about ideograms basically being the "witness" in RV--that RV is one of the only arts with no form of "intermediary" and that by creating an ideogram, one was basically "recreating locally the nonlocal target" as something physical to focus on.  It's cool to see someone else notice that point (since I don't think you got it from me lol).  I think this particular observation is probably more deserving of credit than it gets.

PJ

[quote]I view the ideogram as a "witness", or a jumping on point to the target info.[/quote]

Benton, somewhere around September 10, 2004

PJ sez:

[color=Red]"(since I don't think you got it from me lol)"[/color]

Its highly likely I DID get that from your writings..... so thanks.  I had noticed such a thing, that some people get ahold of the tasked event through tea-leaves, tarot cards, channeled beings, "aspects" (another term you've used), scrying, or whatever.  RV starts the process with intent and an ideogram.

Good stuff.  

murphys, somewhere around September 12, 2004

Hey guys!

I'm jumping into another thread for the first time...

I noticed this talk about ideograms... and I must admit. I don't get them. I know JoeM. talked about them in MIND TREK and said they keep changing, so you have to keep re-learning them. I was and still am a bit puzzled. Are you saying that you get some sort of a 'symbol on a flashcard' kind of experience?

I don't get this 'experience'....

about 4years ago, when I started RVing on my own, I did photos exclusively, and I would pickup on one detail and then I would zoom out of it, slowly getting to see the rest of the photo. I would then try to draw it (most of the time).

or, for example, a friend asked me te tell him what photo he was thinking of (it was a photo he had at his parents home, or something that like)... immediately I got this image of a big white , but somewhat dirty, dog. My friend was drunk at the time (so was I!),  but he was amused and a bit angry at the same time... he said, "You didn't get me! I was in the picture, too!"  So what was the picture? It was him when he was like, seven, at a zoo. He was posing in front of a big wet polar bear!  .... so, yes I picked up on the big white dirty animal, but didn't zoom out enough to see him when he was seven. (the wet fur on the animal made it look like it was 'dirty '-  you know... white fur becomes a darker color when it gets wet, right?)  oh, by the way.... I never got to see the photo for feedback. It's only recently that I realized people stressed feedback so much. My friend just told me what the picture actually was.. after I told him what I saw.

....anyway, my point is... I don't 'get' ideograms when I RV.?@
-or, am I missing the point? was the 'dog' image what you would call an ideogram?

... when I draw, I let my hand do what it wants to do. I try hard not to think about what I'm drawing... I just let my hand go at it! ...however, sometimes my conscious sees the lines I'm drawing and tries to do some shading, or generally make it a  more complete picture.

What I do is...., I kinda wave my pencil around above the paper and then make strokes where it 'feels right'.

Is this what other people do?
(perhaps this question belongs on the other thread I'm taking part in..)

polkadotpuhjommies, somewhere around September 12, 2004

[quote]Ideographs or ideograms are pictures that signify something associated with what they resemble.  
Often what is being being signified is a concept that is not picturable. The eye glyph, e.g., might indicate something beautiful to look at or the concept, beauty.

   In hieroglyphics the eye could refer to (1) an eye, (2) a part of an eye, e.g., the pupil, (3) something related to the eye, (4) sight, (5) the biliteral IR -- the Eg. word associated with the picture, (6) beauty (an eyeful) or (7) a word that sounded like the word for eye. IR also meant "to make" so, using the rebus principle, the eye could be used to signify this word.
   Some have speculated that the ANKH symbol began as a representation of a sandal strap which had the same first syllable as the word for LIFE. *Ankh also referred to a mirror and mirrors were often designed in the shape of the ANKH symbol.  
   The connection between an ideogram and its reference is not arbitrary but the connection can be obscure.  
Ideograms are often used as a generic term for any non-arbitrary sign. As defined here, the reference of such a pictorial sign is not the thing pictured but an associated idea -- often an abstract idea that cannot be pictured. Examples include a dove for peace and an owl for wisdom.  
   Ideograms come the closest to the Jungian idea of a symbol as a representation that has meaning and connotations beyond the obvioius -- beyond their use as a simple sign.  
   A word or an image is symbolic when it implies something more than its obvious and immediate meaning. Symbols often aquire connotations in a cultural context making it difficult for an outsider to fully grasp the full significance of something like a Cretan double headed ax or an Egyptian amulet such as the wadjet (eye of Horus).  
   An image, word, or name is symbolic when it embodies a rich aura of connotations that extend beyond its conventional and obvious meaning. Symbol- ism is often used to describe the undescribable. This is why all religions employ imagery and symbolic language. According to Jung and others, man uses symbolic terms to represent concepts that are beyond his intellec tual capabilities to define or fully comprehend.
[/quote]

Have you ever used a pendulum Murphys?  If so, the ideogram is produced via the same mechanisims that make the pendulum move. PJ gave a good accounting of this is a few posts back. The purpose of using a pendulum is for the visual feedback of having reached the subconscious.

Since you seem to be able to jump right to an actual drawing of the target, you might not ever need to use ideograms. Most of us aren't able to produce an actual representation of a target. When you produce your drawings, you are in fact 'labeling' the outcome. Most of us will do an entire session, scribble away with this, that and theother and when finished, haven't a clue as to wha the target is. You don't seem to have this difficulty from what I've read of your accountings.

murphys, somewhere around September 13, 2004

yeah.. I guess I'll have to put up some examples of what I get...
I did a bunch on the computer (the galleries) about a week or two ago.... it kind of surprised me that you can get results from something stored on someone elses HD, but I guess it's from the feedback, or perhaps the person who handled the photo, right?
There is no way my mind is looking at binary code and undestanding what picture it represents... so it must be from future feedback, or from before the photo became digitized... or perhaps both,eh?

I would never have guessed it could be done on a computer...


anyway...
I just 'drew away' on all of them... I'll post them as soon as I have a block of free time! :)

polkadotpuhjommies, somewhere around September 13, 2004

[quote]I'm jumping into another thread for the first time...  [/quote]

I just checked the number of posts todate - 647...you have 645 more to choose from...knock yourself out!! LOL

[quote]it kind of surprised me that you can get results from something stored on someone elses HD, but I guess it's from the feedback, or perhaps the person who handled the photo, right?
[/quote]

nope...it's not from anything other than having connected with the target  ;-) You had a friend make up some targets for you...giving you only tasking numbers- how do you see that what your friend did is any different than having a tasking number on a computer (hard drive)? There is no difference- a 'hidden/blind' target is a hidden/blind target. ;-)

A common misconception of an aspect of psi abilities is that of time,space, distance.....none of these matter. Psi transcends them all. For several years, I successfully did readings on the internet. I sat at my computer in my jommies and gave readings for strangers. Why did it work? Because I believed it could...I didn't put time,distance,space limits on myself. You have learned somelthing important by knowing for yourself, opposed to someone having told you, that psi is only limited by the person using it.

You didn't answer about the pendulum...consider this in view of the explanation given of pendulums...your pencil could well be YOUR pendulum! One of the tricks (not literal trick) of psi is understanding the principals and then learning how to adapt them individually.

murphys, somewhere around September 14, 2004

I'm gonna chew on this for a while...

end of messages

[END Topic 97] ideograms TKR Remote Viewing Forum August 2003