Topic [234] Ganzfeld and "levels" of consciousness TKR Remote Viewing Forum December 2003

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waterway, somewhere around December 18, 2003

I was speaking with a Ganzfeld researcher the other day, and she commented that she has  noticed in her own work that she can discern "levels" of consciousness during experiments.  In her own experience, she noticed that after the cool-down phase, she gets what she called "stream of consciousness" type stuff, which would include topical stuff related to her recent experience or concerns of that day.  Then after a while, that calms down, and a more subtle flow of information comes that is usually contains PSI info.  

Have other's noticed this pattern in their own efforts?

Gene_Smith, somewhere around December 18, 2003

Hello Waterway,

The pattern you describe is what I would expect in a "typical" CRV type session.  Meaning the longer one is in session the stronger would be the "signal line" contact, with the data becoming more reliable and refined as the session progressed.  At least that is the theory and the way the system is set up to function as I understand it.

Gene Smith

admin, somewhere around December 19, 2003

Yes, I'd agree with that.  However, one can entrain themselves to hit a given state of mind rapidly, even almost instantly, such as hypnosis does.  Although the 'time in session = deeper target contact' is true--and sometimes not just for the time reason, but for the experience with that target reason of course--still I think some viewers are able to drop to a level of high proficiency right off, without quite so much time in an interim 'getting there' zone.  I think sometimes that if we get accustomed to it taking X time, or happening after X process, that doesn't mean that it has to; it just means that's what we have accepted for ourselves.

PJ

T-bone, somewhere around December 19, 2003

Can anyone share a link to where one can purchase a "GOOD" set of Ganzfeld gogles?  I made a set from the traditional ping-pong balls, but they are very uncomfortable.  

Thanks

shr33m, somewhere around December 19, 2003

[quote]Can anyone share a link to where one can purchase a "GOOD" set of Ganzfeld gogles?
Thanks[/quote]

I got mine from www.toolsforwellness.com some years ago. I'm sure they still carry it.

waterway, somewhere around December 19, 2003

the bonester penned:
[size=2][color=orange]" I made a set from the traditional ping-pong balls, but they are very uncomfortable."   [/color][/size]

hehehe.... been there, done that.   One of the burdens of being frugal (ie cheap) is that so many defenseless ping-pong balls had to be sacrificed in the name of science.  I shoulda just found a place on the web and bought some... which I may do.

I was at the Ganzfeld lab and mentioned how nice the ping-pong ball halves looked.... (which only the king of the nerds would ever do...now that I think about it...) and the Dr. commented on the laborous process of making them, and how highly prized they are.... I was so covetous... it was sad really..... in so many ways....  

Gene_Smith, somewhere around December 19, 2003

Looking at these things:  http://www.toolsforwellness.com/lm131.html I would think that taking a fairly standard pair of safety goggles from home depot, for a few dollars and painting them white etc would give you pretty much the same thing.  If looking for something smaller akin to the pingpong ball type you might try a cheapo pair of the small swim googles that just cover the eyes with the lens painted an appropiate color.

Gene  

waterway, somewhere around December 22, 2003

I don't know, I am really excited about using ping-pong ball halves.

FYI, do NOT use golf ball halves.  Very uncomfortable.  8)

I have been playing around with that "Hypnagogic" state, learning to recognize it and shift into it pretty quickly.  We shall see how it pans out with RV efforts.  

T-bone, somewhere around December 24, 2003

[quote]Looking at these things:  http://www.toolsforwellness.com/lm131.html I would think that taking a fairly standard pair of safety goggles from home depot, for a few dollars and painting them white etc would give you pretty much the same thing.  If looking for something smaller akin to the pingpong ball type you might try a cheapo pair of the small swim googles that just cover the eyes with the lens painted an appropiate color. [/quote]

I have actual tried that Gene.  The problem I noticed with this and the one at toolsforwellness site is they both have seams that are very noticeable when being used.  They good thing about ping-pong balls is they give a seamless field to you vision.  The problem with them is they don't fit very well without extensive modifications and tend to be very uncomfortable, with sharp edges ect...  What I realy need to find is some OVERSIZED ping-pong balls like 3" in dia.  

Then again, hmm, wait a sec, I could use my old vacume former and make something that way.   Ahh, I love inspiration!

admin, somewhere around December 24, 2003

You know what would help the pong balls is that liquid rubber they sell on TV that you can say, dip a tool's handle in, to create a rubber handle on?  You could dip just the cut edge of the ball into the rubber and it would create a little rubber border on it for comfort and fit.  PJ

waterway, somewhere around December 26, 2003

Its like you are right there with Thomas Edison or something!  Being on hand as technology is developing!  ::)

Okay, I noticed that the halved ping-pong balls (ppbs) were concave along the edges, to more naturally fit the shape of the eye socket.  Careful sanding or a soft rim would certainly help.  

admin, somewhere around December 27, 2003

All this is WAY too much trouble.  Just view the damn target!  LOL!

PJ

waterway, somewhere around December 28, 2003

PJ stated:
[color=Red]All this is WAY too much trouble[/color]

This could certainly get to be another one of those instances where we are putting up imaginary barriers to RV.  That needs to be avoided.  

And maybe Ganzfeld as a topic needs to be posted somewhere else, so I'll try to stick to the aspects it reveals about RV here.  But one quick comment before I let it drop.  

I do think the Ganzfeld experience and research sheds some light on the mechanics of RV.  I do struggle with the notion that the very interest in and study of the mechanics of RV may actually be reinforcing the barriers to successfully doing RV.  But my logical, science oriented mind, which exists right now, might do better if it had something logical and scientific to believe in that helps convert the rest of my mind to knowing RV is real.  I find that part of it to be a lot of fun.

On the ten thousand roads that lead to knowing, maybe one or two have ping-pong balls involved.

Or, I may be deluding myself in a very logical ... rational way.   :-/

admin, somewhere around December 28, 2003

Oh stop, you're cracking me up!  I was NOT saying that we shouldn't discuss it.  I was just sharing the feeling that came over me after rereading some of the discussion.  ;-)  Ya gotta be a lot tougher.  ;)

I am all for inquiry into any and all details that relate to the many aspects of psi.  I don't think that researchers doing this interferes with psi as they aren't generally practicing psi anyway.  And most practitioners, while many can talk you blue, most of them would rather do than talk anyway.  But we're here to talk, it's a discussion board.  ;-)

It seems to me that hypnotically training oneself to go to a given state of mind and to ignore the outside world might be as useful as spending awhile getting in a state of mind and putting on ping pong balls.  Still I find ALL the altered state stuff fascinating...

Did you read Utt's 91 paper on Honorton's Ganzfeld, among other thing?  It is a nice intro for people new to what Ganzfeld RV is.

http://anson.ucdavis.edu/%7Eutts/91rmp.html

PJ

waterway, somewhere around December 29, 2003

Thanks for the recommended reading.  I have read a few papers on Ganzfeld and that chapter in Radin's book.  

Perhaps I was a bit too.... serious.... but in an effort to toughen up, I am, while writing this post, gnawing off my own foot.  I hope that helps.  Hmmm.... looks like I should have brought more paper towels....

admin, somewhere around December 29, 2003

LOL!!  You might try long term fasting combined with cat-'o-nine whip for really progressive results.  There are several people in the RV field who would probably be willing to help you bleed and suffer for the good of the cause, just for their own enjoyment in truly helping others of course.

My secret goal online is to aid in the development of some people tough enough to debate with me (maggot! stand up straight!) without resorting to what amounts to either whining ("You are baiting me by disagreeing PJ!  I am crawling back in my cave to feel martyrd by you, goodbye!") or avoidance of the issues ("!#$&!@ PJ, you lousy !@#$*!").  I grow weary of the combination of either politically correct or hoof-in-mouth that seems to be the two extremes of conversation in this field.  We have all these smart and experienced people on this board and on staff who I know can find a middle ground both fun yet productive.

Keep working on that foot.  If you separate the tendons from the bone just there at the ankle--yes, that's it--you'll see good results.  And if you do this daily, for long enough, in a proper protocol, you will eventually KNOW, at the fundamental level of psychology, that you are capable of gnawing off your own foot.  Shallow surface belief just won't make ya qualified.

PJ

[size=0]Edited to correct a typo which was undeserving of my post's glory.[/size]

waterway, somewhere around December 29, 2003

PJ penned:

[color=Teal]....combined with cat-'o-nine whip for really progressive results.[/color]

I think there are specific chat-sites on the internet dedicated to this sort of potty-mouth stuff... but if it there is leopard skin spandex involved I am willing to continue it right here..... oh wait.... this is that RV board.... sorry.  

PJ also sez:
[color=Green]My secret goal online is to aid in the development of some people tough enough to debate with me [/color]

You seem to be pretty good at taking as well as getting, lucky you.  

I really want to disagree with you on something here, to show that I CAN TAKE IT!!!  Uh.... crap.  I am so damned confused about what we are talking about I can't really disagree.  Hehehe... who am I kidding?  Since when did confusion and lack of knowledge EVER stop me from arguing a point?  

You said:

[color=Red]Shallow surface belief just won't make ya qualified.
[/color]

Riiiight. Well for your information, what if the surface goes all the way to the core?  And even if the surface is just the maturing of the whole being "in process", once we take the time factor out of it.... the line between being and becoming is erased.   :o

That's right!  I got crap like that stacked up like firewood!  So bring it on!  ... ahem.... say... what what the subject of this thread again?  

Oh... ganzfeld.... levels of consciousness.  Say, have any of youz guys worked with binaural beats to predictabley get you to a "level"?  Mr. McMoneagle didn't make much fuss over the Monroe hemisynch stuff.... does he use it regularly?  What is his relationship with the Monroe Institute these days?

[size=1]Did not edit misspellings because that's YOUR problem, bucko![/size]

admin, somewhere around December 29, 2003

[quote]You seem to be pretty good at taking as well as getting, lucky you.[/quote]
I love it.  Unreasonable attacks give me the opportunity to be eminently reasonable, making the other person by their own hand look like a total dolt to everybody.  Any other conversation (halfway reasonable) is just fun to follow and worth archiving.  So I win either way. ;-)

What's that saying?  "I argue really well.  Ask any of my remaining friends."

[quote]Since when did confusion and lack of knowledge EVER stop me from arguing a point?[/quote]
Or anybody including me.  Are you suggesting we have to be qualified to be qualified to argue?  I think maybe this level of intellectual discourse is simply too advanced to be had in public with anybody who does not consider my word the only word, last word, and final word.  Lack of agreement indicates you do not see the cosmic righteousness of my ways.  People have died for less.

[quote]And even if the surface is just the maturing of the whole being "in process", once we take the time factor out of it.... the line between being and becoming is erased.[/quote]
Aaauuggghhh!  I'm M..E..L..T..I..N..G...

[quote]Oh... ganzfeld.... levels of consciousness.  Say, have any of youz guys worked with binaural beats to predictabley get you to a "level"?[/quote]
Well it's sort of a hypnotic training you know, you would only need them 'at first', after that you could send yourself to level.  I sometimes use F12 or F21 CDs to get in a groovy state of mind prior to ervish viewing.  I don't usually have much time though so not always.

[quote]Mr. McMoneagle didn't make much fuss over the Monroe hemisynch stuff.... does he use it regularly?[/quote]
Well he doesn't need it anymore.  He's pretty well trained himself to be in whatever state of mind he needs to be in.

[quote]What is his relationship with the Monroe Institute these days?[/quote]
Still positive as far as I know.  His wife, the former director, is family of course, he lives locally, and he gives a talk to the classes there if he's in town that week.

[quote]Did not edit misspellings because that's YOUR problem, bucko![/quote]
LOL!  Now that was good.  We'll make an RV Ranger of you yet.  You'll get a little patch to iron on your shirt and everything. ;-)

PJ

waterway, somewhere around December 29, 2003

PJ said:

[color=Blue]You'll get a little patch to iron on your shirt and everything.[/color]

Phfahh!  Sissies use shirts!  I will iron it right onto my bare skin!!!  

Meanwhile, back at the subject of this thread.... I have been working with meditating and binaural beats just to get used to moving in and out of various "states" of consciousness.  Again, experience and practice will help with this, my goal is to be able to move to that "state" of consciousness necessary for RV quickly, easily and predictably.    

admin, somewhere around December 29, 2003

Now there's a real man.

Are you sure there is a specific state RV is found in?

It's probably illegal in several states.

PJ

waterway, somewhere around December 29, 2003

PJ puzzled...
[color=Green] Are you sure there is a specific state RV is found in? [/color]

Isn't Missouri the "Show me." state?  That is pretty close.  Certainly has intent.

But seriously folks, according to the binaural beat affecionados, certain brain states allow for certain mental/psychic/spiritual phenomenon.  

admin, somewhere around December 29, 2003

Yes but that isn't to say that no other brainstates allow for them.  People do CRV/TRV in a fairly alert state and get valid data; people do other stuff in about 1.2 million variations on 'altered state' and get valid data; I think there are some states of mind that are good for suspension of disbelief, suspension of a degree of analytical tendeies, and receptiveness to psi (I'd say California qualifies for all of those), but the question is, exactly what states and/or methods of getting to those states is the answer.  

You can do holotropic breathing, yoga, self hypnosis, meditation, hemi-sync(tm) or other bineural stuff, to get there.  I imagine the only way to really see what works best for RV in the long run is to do RV in as many states as possible (Rhode Island, Kansas, etc.) and then just see, over time, how it pans out.  

I once decided to focus on TMI stuff and self-hypnosis, figuring I'd get the state of mind down and THEN do RV.  I finally realized it was excuse #18,922 for how to avoid doing a session, so I gave it up.  I crack myself up.  I am the queen of excuses for avoiding a session.  -)on't think I'm inferring that's what you're doing. ;-)  It's a logical practice, the state of mind think.

PS  I'm a California girl, for anybody ready to get bent about my joke above.  :P  Just because I now live in nowhere, Oklahoma, home of the white bread white boys and their culturally recursive ideas, does not mean I've lost my sense of humor.  And just because my little city has about 32 churches and every single one of them are christian--I fear to ask what would happen to a jew or buddhist here--doesn't mean I lack for religion; this is native America, where being up to 1/256 native on the rolls gets you welfare money, so I can always discuss talking to the spirit of the trees without anybody looking at me oddly as long as nobody thinks I'm serious.  I went from CA to Oregon, then Washington State, then Texas, now OK.  I've also lived in CT and spent some time in several other states.  I would say 'state of mind' is an appropriate term.  Each one really is.

OK so maybe this has damn little to do with Ganzfeld.  Hold on I am working on bringing my post to topic, lemme think.

OK.  Well in Idaho I reached the state of mind with strawberry margaritas and my beloved aunt and uncle who drink as much as they breathe.  In Texas, several months of days over 100 degrees did it for me, talk about frying your brain.  In California, I was always a space case.  In Seattle(WA), the endless unchanging grey went a long way to the grey room effect.  No wait, I gotta quit kidding, the topic PJ, the topic...

Waterway, I think F12-F15 is supposed to be pretty good for RV, particularly F15 once you're into it.

I am getting ready to make myself a self hypnosis tape especially for RV exercises, using some hemi-sync in there from my CDs.  This to hopefully keep myself awake, LOL.

PJ

admin, somewhere around December 29, 2003

Speaking of altered states, Persinger is actually comarketing a magnetic project designed to -- er, potentially generate OBEs, lucid dreams, visitations, and other sensory anomalies.

http://www.innerworlds.50megs.com/shakti/start.htm

waterway, somewhere around December 29, 2003

PJ said:
[color=Red] I am the queen of excuses for avoiding a session.  -)on't think I'm inferring that's what you're doing. [/color]

Well, I think I am afraid that is what I am doing, finding new ways to avoid actually doing RV.  But I honestly did get into this RV thing via my curiosity about states of consciousness.  So I think I will put my fears to rest, study consciousness and do RV.  

But all that introspective, sharing stuff aside... it remains to be seen if hemisynch or other binaural beat technologies adjust the many brain energies going on up there in the noggin.  I believe there are lots of processes going on, and only a few are needed to get RV info to consciousness.  I get the feeling that binaural beat entrainment gets all the process on the same frequency, which isn't necessarily a good thing, since I have trouble writing or communicating at certain binaural beat frequencies.  

The Ganzfeld stuff, and binaural beats, would seem more appropriate for random experimental subjects off the street.  Perhaps they can "induce" some new state that distracts the conscious brain long enough for PSI info to leak through.  Better for an RVer to learn to do it without props.... though I am still open to the leopard skin spandex.... but that is a different subject.... [size=1]for a different thread.... on a different board..... in a different reality..... [/size]

I will keep you posted on the ganzfeld stuff and if those experiences contribute to my RVing skills.

admin, somewhere around December 29, 2003

[quote]Well, I think I am afraid that is what I am doing, finding new ways to avoid actually doing RV.  But I honestly did get into this RV thing via my curiosity about states of consciousness.[/quote]
The really GOOD excuses are the hardest as they make so much sense!

[quote]I believe there are lots of processes going on, and only a few are needed to get RV info to consciousness.[/quote]
I am trying to remember, some woman author, talking about EEG stuff, and saying she felt that it was actually having ALL of them a bit active which allowed info to come from a 'depth' part up to conscious.

[quote]Better for an RVer to learn to do it without props.... though I am still open to the leopard skin spandex.... but that is a different subject.... [size=1]for a different thread.... on a different board..... in a different reality..... [/size][/quote]
LOL.  I actually consider methodologies to be props as well, which is not to say they are a bad thing, only to say they become a dependency for some and structure how we take in info; which may be a better way than whatever one might have done without them; but also I think should not be in the realm of never-question-this, as surely individual innovation over time may find useful additions or modifications.

I have a problem with seriously-altered state RV if I don't have a monitor, the best state for data is very difficult to communicate from but it's even more difficult to direct/task oneself from.  It's like yer sitting there and when you wonder what to do next, 'nothing comes', you could sit there in that hypnotic state indefinitely until something shakes you out or until you fall asleep. ;-)

That helmet thing I linked above seems interesting.

PJ

The_Spook, somewhere around December 29, 2003

OK forgive me for the tongue in cheek commentary here but all this talk about ping pong balls and now I have this vivid visual of the bad guy's eyeballs popping out of his head in Who Framed Roger Rabbit?...yeah....now you do too, right!?   ;-)

admin, somewhere around December 29, 2003

Now there's a pretty visual!  Thanks Spook!  That'd make a great RV cartoon.

PJ

wizopeva, somewhere around January 8, 2004

Is Persinger comarketing it?  I saw no mention of him being in on the Shaktilite, only that it was developed from his original work.   There has been some mention of possible copywrite infringement on other lists.  To be honest I have no idea how much truth is in any of it.
-E

[quote]Speaking of altered states, Persinger is actually comarketing a magnetic project designed to -- er, potentially generate OBEs, lucid dreams, visitations, and other sensory anomalies.

http://www.innerworlds.50megs.com/shakti/start.htm

[/quote]

waterway, somewhere around January 9, 2004

PJ said:
[color=Blue][size=1]"I have a problem with seriously-altered state RV if I don't have a monitor, the best state for data is very difficult to communicate from but it's even more difficult to direct/task oneself from.  It's like yer sitting there and when you wonder what to do next, 'nothing comes', you could sit there in that hypnotic state indefinitely until something shakes you out or until you fall asleep."[/size][/color]

Yes, that is too often true.  I have worked around that problem by developing a bit of software that allows the user to create binaural beats so they can get in that "zone" state, sorta hypnagogic... and then the program will prompt you with audio cues.  I also made it so you could alter the binaural beat frequency on the fly, by using the scroll wheel on the mouse.  And the interface is big and colorful, so you can sit back in a chair or bed, and holding the mouse, see the interface way far away.  I haven't used it or messed with developing it lately, but may if I find that "altered" state to be productive in RV.  Currently, I just cool down without the binaural beat stuff, and go from there.  But it can be a pain to try to get to that "altered state" of receptivity, and wake up 2 hours later.  Bummer. ???

Glyn, somewhere around January 11, 2004

[quote] Currently, I just cool down without the binaural beat stuff, and go from there.  But it can be a pain to try to get to that "altered state" of receptivity, and wake up 2 hours later.  Bummer. ???[/quote]

Oh that's so frustrating isn't it? I've used a voice-activated tape recorder many times, and often I've played the thing back and halfway through all I get is slurred grunting lip-smacking noises, and then some more impressions, and more slurring and gurgling...until finally, just regular peaceful (and sometimes shamefully loud), snoring noises...  ;-)  ;-)

Glyn

Glyn, somewhere around January 11, 2004

[quote]You know what would help the pong balls is that liquid rubber they sell on TV that you can say, dip a tool's handle in, to create a rubber handle on?  You could dip just the cut edge of the ball into the rubber and it would create a little rubber border on it for comfort and fit.  PJ[/quote]

Hi PJ, sorry I'm way behind again  ;).

My husband, who is an avid modeller says to look in any model shop for some rubber channelling, which is used for cockpit edging on model aircraft. May be worth a try.

Regards,
Glyn

waterway, somewhere around January 11, 2004

Yeah, I would think there would be some kind of soft edging with a channel in it to slip over the edge to make it easier to use.  Of course, the ball-halves are so light, sanded edges may do just as well.  

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[END Topic 234] Ganzfeld and "levels" of consciousness TKR Remote Viewing Forum December 2003