Topic [271] News Flash: Remote Viewing Not Real TKR Remote Viewing Forum February 2004

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RemoteVeiwer1, somewhere around February 26, 2004

Hi

Well where to start, i guess i could tell you that i have read several manuals papers and other related literature to the subject and  i have tried in groups and alone using several well documented models of RV .
None, thats right not one single time did i or anyone else (when in a group) produce any data that could be honestly clasified as accurate.
But what i can tell you is this, the Lead to the group (name witheld but  please feel free to fill in your own personal instructors name here ____)  took the money encouraged people with such words as "it takes time" and "well its not an exact science" even to the point where  i felt he was changing data to fit the target subject criteria,  example: a young lady who described the environment as open with man made structures was actually viewing a mountainous area, the Lead told her well your powers are growing that looks like it could be a man made structure (photo, showing the area) as he pointed to what could have been anything from a tree to  a boulder. Ihave contacted others who have attended seminars with what im sure are supposed to be the crem dela creme of The remote viewing hierachy and asked them to participate in laboratory controlled experiments to test thier powers, needless to say in each case i was declined. i have also wondered why all of you so called Remote Viewers have never needed a million pound?  http://www.randi.org/
or why it cost so much to take lessons or the need to purchase expensive rings/crystals?
http://www.rvscience.com/bsrie/psimaster.htm

Ok rant over, now please i am not interested in just talking rubbish and hearing how you went to the moon or saw the enlightenment of buddah first hand, i want proof real hard evidence that i am 100% sure none of you can give me

i await your replies

waterway, somewhere around February 26, 2004

Sorry to hear you and your friends didn't have any luck at RVing.  It may help if you practiced more.  But since you are 100% certain it won't ever occur, if I were you, I'd find another way to spend your time.  I believe there is lots of documentation on the reality of RV and other PSI events, so keep reading.  There is also evidence that for it to work, you and your friends have to believe it will work.   Given the aforementioned total disbelief, your odds don't look good.

Once you look over the literature, like some of McMoneagle's books, Targ's recent book, or Radin or Tart's books, define "proof, real hard evidence" and what is lacking there, please.  Its really as fascinating as it is real.

Thanks for your post.  

energycritter, somewhere around February 26, 2004

Remoteviewer1,

Your complaints about money are understandable considering all possible subjective outcomes that individuals encounter when they pay for anything.

Your complaints about teachers and errors in general as well as manipulation and whatnot are understandable, especially when money has been an aspect of the activity.

The desire for 100% proof and whatnot is understandable no matter how you define it or how hard it is to produce.

Your overall perspective and posting in general is completely understandable as a way for a person to see something of this nature and as a way for this type of subject to be regarded by many. I am sure that your perspective is not standing alone. I am sure that you would have more followers of your perspective than of the perspectives of the supporters of RV, especially considering the nature of anything psi in nature.

Keep in mind, or, at least consider, that who agrees and disagrees, who experiences or does not experience and who believes and disbelieves never has any affect on what is or what is not true about any aspect of reality or non-reality.

But, consider and try and embrace the idea that the oversimplified and completely subjective claim of yours of RV not being real says more about the internal workings of “you” personally than it does about RV and any truth or non-truth connected to its existence or non-existence.

I too thank you for your post and I look forward to the possibility of you opening up to a broader perspective that may lend itself to you embracing the aspects of RV that you can embrace at this time and allow time to work its magic and maybe someday you will not be so convinced that RV is not real, you will simply be convinced that your personal experience with it is lacking evidence, but, it can be real for many and someday be real for you. The objectivity of anyone can fall prey to the errors of anything or anyone, but, consider your personal subjectivity and lack of objectivity to be more fragile than you may have considered, or, maybe your motive for RV is such that somehow you have fogged your own perspective and thereby will be your worst enemy as you try and find proof to the issues of life that often hide proof from those that falter in subjective oversimplification and Non-belief.

Your internal possitionality and perspective do not allow proof to be rendered by anyone, as mentioned above by Waterway, but, your request for such, again, is understandable.

I wish you luck in your endeavor to find proof, but, I more so wish you luck in the success of your internal searching for understanding of a way to be more objective and less absolute about your condemnation of things that are not completely understood by anyone.

:)

ec

admin, somewhere around February 26, 2004

Thanks for sharing.  I understand your need to seek out people who feel differently and rant at them.  Please, feel welcome.  

You might consider also seeking out all forums which address God, Love, and other things which officially don't exist and/or are merely neural chemical delusions.  The world needs your help, and life is short.

Since your post is an announcement, I am moving this thread to the appropriate board.

PJ

polkadotpuhjommies, somewhere around February 26, 2004

[quote]asked them to participate in laboratory controlled experiments to test thier powers, needless to say in each case i was declined. i have also wondered why all of you so called Remote Viewers have never needed a million pound?  http://www.randi.org/  
or why it cost so much to take lessons or the need to purchase expensive rings/crystals?
http://www.rvscience.com/bsrie/psimaster.htm
[/quote]


My experience and that of many others I've talked with in the psi world say this: to 'prove' to others is NOT the goal. The goal is to know within oneself - this knowing spawns belief, this belief is a gift to and of self.  Those who REALLY partake of psi as part of spirituality simply won't fall prey to 'these types of challanges' as they serve no true purpose to the evolvement of self, which is what this is all about in the end....personal growth, developement, awareness and truths.


[quote]None, thats right not one single time did i or anyone else (when in a group) produce any data that could be honestly clasified as accurate.[/quote]

I have to ask.... who was the judge of the accuracy? What was the criteria? Perhaps withholding a final judgement of 'this stuff not working', it might be better to scout around to those groups who DO have successful remote sessions...and there are plenty. In order to a fair opinion, both sides must be investigated else the opinion is lopsided.


[quote] i want proof real hard evidence that i am 100% sure none of you can give me  
[/quote]

As you read through these thousands of postings, I along with a few others are firm believers of and in intent.  I beleive it is key in any endevor...win, loose or draw. Your statement already claims that you are sure there is nothing that can be said that will 'prove to you' that this works. Having said that, none of us are really about trying to convince or convert anyone of anything. Again, this is a personal experience and for those who are willing to share their adventure with those who are willing to learn and share in return, a relationship of like minds is born.  None of us wants to spend our time in debates or dramas, rights, wrongs, blah blah...we have other fish to fry.

All in all, in the end, we are who we are in the place we are found at the present moment....none of us are 'finished' as we all continue to change and evolve as living life draws us further into its clutches. We all learn and choose and decide at a pace that is appropriate for ourselves. As you are entitled to your perceptions regarding remote viewing, based on your personal experience, we who have different experiences will also have different opinions and perceptions based on 'our truths and knowledge'

Welcome to the group... as you can see, all postings are considered and all postings welcomed. You have joined a group of free thinkers who are not afraid to speak their minds or offer their opinions or discuss differences. You have joined a quality group. Congratulations!

EricT, somewhere around February 27, 2004

Boy am I glad I read this!  I had no idea!  I am throwing out all my best sessions now... dum de dum... there they go down the shredder...  ;)

Hehe.  All kidding aside...

RV and PSI in general is something that you have to be a little open minded to.  I am becoming a very firm believer that we all create our own realities, so if you insist that you will never see any proof- and you believe that unto yourself- then you wont.

Now, there have been a ton of studies where either people running the studies, or participants, let thier egos run away to th epoint of trying to gain some grand fame from it.  This happens even moreso with alot of the gurus and teachers out there.  So you are wise to be skeptical of the people involved.  Nobody is perfect, and alot of the most famous RV guys in the industry are very far from it.

But- should a few bad apples ruin a chance to understand something great?  I dont think so.

Training can be expensive.  Might not be necessary.  I am sorry for your $$ loss, but just because you lost money doesnt mean it doesnt work.  Some people lose cash on the stock market, doesnt mean ALL people lose money on the stock market.  -)oesnt mean that the cash losers might just need a little more practice at it, too.

RV is a bitch to start.  Straight up, its hard and annoyingly slow.  My first targets, I was drawing lines where the flourescent lights were in a target photo.  That was all I got.  Accurate?  Well, I didnt underwstand what I was drawing, but I matched up 4 lights, in overlay on the pic.  So that wasnt chance.  Useful data?  Hell no.  Useful data is a long time coming of patience and hard work.

I found, in myself, no matter what I read, all I could accept was the possibility of it working.  Being a former athiest (not saying I am in a specific religion now, mind you) this was a hard thing to swallow.  But if you accept the maybe- and work at it- it will come.

You just cannot expect to be drawing perfect target representations right away, or naming the target.  But your example of the general gestalt (shape) being a house, tree or boulder... well, thats what everyone gets in the beginning.  This aint like buying a car, you dont slap down the cash and drive off the lot- its more like building one by hand.  Blindfolded...  ;)

Per proof- heh, this sounds like another guy I know, so I may be repeating myself- if you come onto a board, slam people around, call thier whole "deal" a sham, they probly arent going to be very forthcoming in providing you with, well, anything.  Let alone proof.   Should you reword it saying look, I got some training, it flopped, whats the deal?  You will more than likely get an outpouring of help.  Take it with a grain of salt, of course, but still.   Why not hear people out?  There are several bad trainers out there.  That doenst mean this aint real.  Just means they suck.

The galleries will be online shortly.  I would say, belay your frustration for a bit, and try your hand in the galleries here.  You can even be totally anonymous and still get great feedback from some pros here.  I suspect that what you (RV1) are considering missed or totally off sessions, may have some great data in there.  Positive reinforcement is what makes one better at RV- IMO- and I dont think youve gotten any of that.  (doesnt sound like it)

It can be anonymous, like I mentioned before, so should you see something more is there, but wish to retreat to your stance of "its all rubbish" nobody will know.  ;)  You will be safe.

Best of luck.

EricT

admin, somewhere around February 27, 2004

Oh wait, is this the ranter from the old HRVG board??  Or a different troll?  I should do an IP search.

I shouldn't be so biased. I know, I know, it's just the 99% of them that give the other 1% such a bad name.

Isn't it lucky other people here are so much kinder than I am.  Now that isn't hard to accomplish lately.

People who fly into some new place and deliberately try to bring abuse on themselves by their approach, clearly have a greater "desperate need to believe" than anybody else--they're willing to risk anything from shunning to attack in their hope that someone will finally say something that changes their mind.  How sad, to have a mind so trapped in ambivalent dichotomy that one is fighting themselves.

I'm afraid such folks'll have to get therapy somewhere else, though.  I'm just well past the point of wanting to convince anybody else of anything.  If someone doesn't buy into any form of psi or RV, well then -- great!  More power to 'em.  How about they go get a life.  Starting by talking about something else, since RV's so pointless.

I mean really.  We have enough obnoxious people in our own field, it's amazing we can put up with each other (and often we don't).  So I ask myself, do I want someone who behaves like this to do enough RV to realize how 'real' it is, and become part of this field?

Not really.  Some contributions are more harm than help.  I think people who want to attack others about the psi thing should just move on.  I find no desire whatever to convince them (as they basically are always begging for).  The way I see it, they feel the way they do, because their psychology is really just not ready to deal with psi.  If they were exposed to it for real, they might become one of the many partial lunatics we all know so many of in this field.  No point in wishing that fate on them -- or us.  Let 'em be, is my philosophy.

(Doesn't need to be anybody else's.)

PJ

Joe_Black, somewhere around March 4, 2004

As for the million dollar challenge... Mr. Randi is the judge and jury. And if he wanted too, NOT TO SAY IN ANYWAY THAT MR RANDI WOULD ACT DISHONERABLY he could just decide in the face or overwheming evidence that the participant has failed in the challenge. Why would he give away a million, he has the choice not too, read the terms and conditions of the challenge.

polkadotpuhjommies, somewhere around March 4, 2004

[quote]Why would he give away a million, he has the choice not too, read the terms and conditions of the challenge[/quote]

Ta dah!  ;-)  Exactly!  I read the terms years ago...and a bunch of other revealing things about his 'open invitation' to sure failure.  

About Mr Randi -   :-X :-X :-X

Joe_Black, somewhere around March 5, 2004

Heres a good test i thought up.

A easy one would be to identify if a target was, structure, liquid, lifeform, mountain. On a repeated measures design, double blind. Using at least 5+ viewer. (the would have to be alot of trails, maybe even a few hundered) That would give STATISTICAL PROOF of psi-functioning even if it is only shown at this low data level. The is no interpretation involved in this experiment just 1 of 4 choices repeated many times, so individual bias would play no part in the experiment. Ideally the tests would be carried out by a university institution with clearly defined procedures and controls.

Another viewer chooses the pictures before hand to have no similar aspects, so they are totally different to avoid any possible confusion when viewing.

EricT, somewhere around March 5, 2004

Joe-

Your test is alot better than any mentioned yet.  I would like to add one point- that the test be run by an independent 3rd party... not the thread originator for sure.  In other words, I wouldnt trust good ol Randi to be in charge.  And, I sure wouldnt want any of my buddies to be involved either.  -)ouble blind is double blind, or you get into a whole mess of junk that anyone can turn into cheating.  'Nuff said

Eric

Joe_Black, somewhere around March 6, 2004

Get some reputable TV station to host it like the BBC, invite anyone they want to watch. Video the whole thing. No one can accuse anyone of anything then.

with 5+ skilled remote viewers i would expect a 100% success rate from this simple test. it would be slow though as only a few targets could be done a day.

end of messages

[END Topic 271] News Flash: Remote Viewing Not Real TKR Remote Viewing Forum February 2004